S6E13 – Future-Proof Your B2B SaaS Pricing: Strategies for the AI Era and Beyond with Kevin Lems

In this episode, we explore how SaaS companies can build smart pricing strategies that stay relevant, especially with the rise of artificial intelligence (AI). learn how to Future-Proof Your B2B SaaS Pricing Our guest, Kevin Lems, Commercial Director for Europe at Younium, shares lessons from his years of experience in SaaS sales, subscription management, and revenue growth. His insights are especially helpful for B2B SaaS leaders trying to improve or rethink their pricing.

Why Choosing the Right Pricing Model Matters

Kevin explains that pricing isn’t just about covering product costs — it’s about helping your company grow. Founders, revenue leaders, and CFOs need to make sure their pricing model supports fast customer onboarding and strong return on investment. A good pricing model helps people say “yes” quickly and keeps the business moving forward.

Common Mistakes in SaaS Pricing

One big mistake? Assuming that switching to a pay-as-you-go model will automatically boost sales. While it might help customers get started faster, it doesn’t always improve long-term revenue or company valuation. Kevin stresses the importance of balancing recurring income with overall business stability.

Challenges with Selling to Enterprises

Many SaaS companies want to target big enterprise clients — but using the same pricing model as for small businesses can backfire. Kevin warns that enterprise deals are more complex and need a different pricing strategy that reflects the scale and service level required.

Using Product-Led Growth (PLG) with Big Clients

PLG works great for smaller customers, but it can also help with enterprises — if done right. Kevin suggests using PLG to let big clients try the product on their own, then following up with a personalized sales approach to close the deal.

Moving Toward Usage-Based Pricing

More SaaS companies are looking at usage-based pricing, especially with AI tools becoming more common. While fully switching to pay-as-you-go is tough, Kevin recommends a hybrid model. Start with a base fee, then add usage-based pricing on top to balance stable income with flexibility.

Pricing Based on Value, Not Just Features

Kevin believes pricing should reflect real value. Instead of charging per user or feature, think about pricing based on results — like leads generated or conversions. This helps customers see the true worth of your service.

How to Review and Update Your Pricing

SaaS founders should regularly check if their pricing still fits the market. This includes looking at competitors, tracking how much it costs to get and keep customers, and talking to clients about what they value. Any changes should be rolled out carefully to avoid disrupting business.

SaaS Pricing Best Practices

Kevin highlights a few key tips:

• Know your product and customer costs
  
• Price based on the value you deliver
  
• Make it easy for customers to understand and say yes
  
• Share the risk fairly between you and the customer
  

Final Takeaway

A solid pricing strategy is key to long-term SaaS success. By staying flexible, understanding market trends like AI and usage-based models, and focusing on customer value, you can build pricing that supports sustainable growth.

KeyTimecodes

• (0:03) – Introduction: Discussing SaaS pricing and the importance of a suitable pricing model.
• (3:08) – Key Question: Why is getting the right pricing model important for B2B SaaS founders today?
• (4:35) – Misconceptions: Common misconceptions in SaaS pricing strategies.
• (7:24) – PLG Approach: Discussing the Product-Led Growth approach for SaaS companies.
• (10:53) – Enterprise Pricing: How to justify different pricing models for enterprise customers.
• (12:29) – Future of SaaS Pricing: The role of AI and usage-based pricing models.
• (20:00) – Pricing Strategy: Steps to change and improve SaaS pricing.
• (24:16) – Best Practices: Sharing best practices for evaluating SaaS pricing models.
• (34:43) – Key Advice: Summarizing the best advice on SaaS pricing.
• (36:04) – Growing to 10K MRR: Advice for early-stage SaaS founders.
• (38:50) – Growing to 10M ARR: Strategies for scaling to significant revenue milestones.
• (45:14) – Conclusion: Final thoughts and contact information.

Transcription

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

Value. The value is not greater. We can produce an invoice faster or we can get more leads in. That’s not really the bottom line. The biggest mistake that I see is taking your SME or SMB pricing model and replicating that into an enterprise sales cycle. 60% of all SaaS properties will transition into a usage-based price platform. Pay as you go, price model. The reality is we haven’t that. However, we do see AI pop-ups, even name drop them, but they do transition to users’ model. In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about future-proof SaaS pricing. Strategies for your SaaS pricing with the rise of AI and beyond this era. My guest today is Kevin Lentz. Kevin is the Commercial Director, Europe at Younium. Before joining Younium, he built his career in sales leadership, commercial roles across several SaaS companies, helping them to scale and optimize their revenue operations. With a strong background in subscription management, revenue recognition, and data-driven growth strategies, Kevin helps B2B SaaS companies tackle the complexities of pricing, billing, revenue optimization at scale. Welcome to the show, Kevin. Thank you for having me, Jeroen. We’re going to dive right in. Why is getting the right pricing model important for B2B SaaS founders today?

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

The pricing Our solution is something every founder, revenue leader, CFO is constantly questioning, comparing, improving. You want to get the right revenue for the investment that you made on product development, but also the cost of sales. There is much more to it. I look at pricing and the model of it from a sales perspective, from a commercial operation perspective. Return on investment is super important. When do I get my revenue back out of a sales? When do I get my revenue back out of a sales? When do I get my revenue back out of a sales? However, I think if you look at the B2B SaaS company or any SaaS company, I would say velocity is super important. You want to get traction. The question that I sometimes ask to a customer or a partner, how easy is it to become a customer? That depends a lot on your SaaS solution, obviously. There are things that are super easily to adapt. Login on the website, create an account, leave your credit card, and done. But there’s, of course, super complex solutions like the ERP system, CRM or subscription management like Younium. That’s something you buy on a click.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

However, creating a price model that makes it easy or helps it to make a decision is very beneficial for your sales process. Therefore, on scale, it will bring velocity to the growth of your company. When we talk about SaaS pricing in general, what is one of the big misconceptions you see technology right now that SaaS founders or companies have? You always have to look at it from two perspectives. One is the perspective of the customer. How easy is it to get on board? Do I want to present a land and expand strategy? Secondly, what is important for B2B SaaS founders is the evaluation of my company. Something that we’ve seen over the last two years is the rise of pay as you go, usage components, and that That’s double-sided. Yes, it’s way easier to become a customer if the step to make the decision is really based on value-based outcome. However, an investor, an angel investor, or a venture capital, for that sense, they will not classify this as recurring revenue. They will classify it as reoccurring revenue. Perhaps you might have a lot of velocity new customer acquisition, but the evaluation of the company might be put into a different perspective.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

And that’s very much dependent on what stage you are in as a SaaS company. Do you need additional funding to grow at scale? Most often, yes, it’s the case. Then perhaps completely going into usage components is not the best option. Is cash flow a problem at the moment? It is interesting to look at that. The misconception is that going, for instance, either way, going full a pay as you go is the solution to create velocity in sales. That’s That’s not necessarily the case. Neither is it the case to get a very big contract. Let’s say five-year contract with a 50K ACV, the higher evaluation of your company. We’re going to dive more into Pay as you go value-based outcome in a little bit. At first, I guess, I wanted to then go deeper on the second thing you mentioned, having the bigger ACVs. I think that’s one of the bigger mistakes companies make while determining pricing or growing the company they want to go to enterprise. Probably Too quickly. Can you dive deeper into that and maybe some other common mistakes companies make? Absolutely. Throughout my career, I’ve seen both clients, but also a lot of companies that I work at or people that came to me, Can you help me with this?

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

We want to go enterprise. My first question will be, why? There is a huge misconception on going to enterprise. Maybe it’s right. We all see it as the Caribbean of The economy. As soon as you are in enterprise sales, things will fly. It’s not the case. Actually, I think an individual that we all know very well is Jaco van der Koy. He wrote several books, which most of them I read. The question is, are you actually making more revenue in enterprise? And are your costs the same? Or are you spending more time on enterprise deals and write the existing customers, then you’re actually making revenue? To talk about the biggest misconception in that sense is, the biggest mistake that I see is taking your SME or SMB pricing model and replicating that into an enterprise sales cycle. Let’s take an average SMB customer and our MRR out of that will be €1,000 based on 10 seats. It’s simply not the case that in enterprise, It would mean you’re making 10X the amount of revenue if you’re selling 10X the amount of seats. It’s simply not the case. That’s definitely the biggest misconstruction I’ve seen throughout my career.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

If you turn it around a bit or look at maybe even our example, we have a PLG approach. We can address any company they can purchase themselves, including enterprise, where sometimes you think, Okay, we’re way too cheap for them because in the end, you’re not going to do more for them. So indeed, I agree. We spend a lot more time on the bigger clients, but they’re actually paying the same amount than some other companies. If you want to go enterprise, what would be the best way to do it? Good question, and there’s no simple answer. In the case of coming from a PLG scenario, there’s a lot of takes on PLG in general. I think PLG is a super interesting topic because there is this flavor of PLG. Let’s say you’re selling to self-employed individuals, let’s take the smallest bunch. I look into I go to the website, leave my credit card payment method, and get the environment, then boom, I’m up and running. To replicate that motion into SMB, let’s say we now want people that have 10 employees or 20 employees becoming a customer in the same way. Step number one, is it the same amount of effort for the client himself to onboard?

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

Two, does your pricing model still make sense? Are you making enough revenue out of this account in in terms of perhaps additional implementation that you have to do or guidance. That’s a small step. Then the last step would be, let’s say we’re trying to get Salesforce on board. Salesforce logs into our website, creates an account, and creates accounts seats for 10,000 employees. Is that realistic? Most likely no is the answer. The thing is, we got stuck on this PLG mindset where one leaves their credit card details and becomes a customer and boom, is live. Plg can do more. You can use PLG in the enterprise to get leads in. This is not necessarily bound to sign the deal on the login, but maybe they get access to the environment. They don’t have to leave credit card payments. They get a trial or whatever. During their trial, They are getting pop-ups like, Hey, did you know we have this feature? Contact us for a full demonstration. It becomes more of an inbound channel for your enterprise sales department. That’s where you can spend hours with sales, with solution architect, project managers, to really create the full scope of, What is the reason that you came to us?

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

What are you running into? What have you tried to solve this earlier? Did you make a decision on it back then? How can we achieve what you are looking for? How will we need to do this set up? Then you’re coming way more into a value-based selling proposition. Then again, the pricing model that you used to sell to solo entrepreneurs doesn’t apply to this enterprise sales force deal. Clearly, try to make a distinction in solo entrepreneur, self-employed individuals, then SMB, SME, and then more in the enterprise section. They require different sales logist, right? Yeah, because in the end, as you mentioned, our key PLG gets the leads in, but then segment them based on the data you have on them because you know the company name exactly, all the integrations, how big they are, the revenue they do, and then push it over to sales to ask the proper questions. But then maybe a practical one, they would still see the pricing on the site. How would you… You can deal with that. They would see the plan starts at X. You went into this trajectory to If you’re going to do the value-based selling, then you’re going to say you’ll fall into our enterprise bucket.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

How do you justify charging them more? The question is, are you charging them more? Because again, that’s the assumption of going to enterprise. Because my gut feeling will be, of course, the invoice amount will be higher than you sent to a solo manufacturer, right? But are you charging them more per user? That’s most likely the answer is no, or I’m 100% sure the answer is no. That’s a very Very important thing to understand. To mitigate that conversation, it’s very straightforward. What I do in those sales cycles, you are super transparent. You tell them it’s different to get a bakery on the corner as a customer. That’s something different to get you on board. Therefore, where you usually don’t work with the onboarding fee, maybe in this case you do, to, again, mitigate the customer acquisition cost, for instance, but also the return on investment on this case. I think there’s nobody surprised in that space if you do price differently. But again, perhaps you need a good thing to mention. Most likely your price per seat or outcome will be lower, but the volume will create a higher. You talked about it already, the Pay as you go value-based outcome, pricing the reoccurring revenue, as you mentioned it, because with the rise of AI, more and more companies are now dropping the seat-based pricing, which we just discussed with the sales, for example, and they’re going more in towards the actual value value a SaaS brings then rather than the number of people using it.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

It’s going to be super hard, I guess, to answer, but do you think it’s the future of SaaS pricing? Should SaaS companies consider implementing in 2025? How do you look at that? This topic has been going on for years, but in the last two years, I think there was two years in a row where there were some statement made in the market. This year, 60% of all SaaS companies will transition into a usage-based price model or as big as you go, price model. The reality is we haven’t seen that. However, we do see AI pop-ups, even name drop them, but they do transition into a usage model, a pay-as-you-go model. I think it is super, super hard if you are a prominent B2B SaaS company. Let’s say you’re above 50 employees, you’re established, you maybe have around 100 customers, and therefore, maybe even in total, 50 or more cases in the pipe, it is super difficult to completely change your pricing model into completely Pay as you go model for many reasons. As mentioned before, the evaluation of the company, even more also, can my tech stack handle this way of pricing? If you would start from scratch today, I think, yes, it’s fairly easy and a good take to go on Pay as you go.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

But I would always, and that is something I do see, is the combination of both have a recurring revenue stream that covers a base cost, provide a predictable revenue stream, and have a usage component on top that will benefit the customer and benefit you as well on the end. When starting out, it’s best to do recurring plus reoccurring when you are already established. It’s probably going to be super hard to change. Yeah, It is definitely hard to change. We hear almost every company talking about it. What I see mostly is that there are new features, for instance, that will be a usage-based component, and especially a new AI feature. Something that is super popular, you see almost every SaaS company doing this is having a copilot function or being able to predict certain things with AI. This is what we typically I see if a company launches this, they do this on a Pay as you go, Pay as outcome basis. Good to mention, as a usage component, there are different steps dependent on what you’re providing, what is the value you’re bringing with this feature, different ways of pricing into a Pay as you go.

[00:00:03.850] – Kevin

Is it Pay as you click? Let’s say we’re using this copilot thing as an example. I want to ask my copilot, what is my revenue? As I write this prompt, push it to the bot. Is this directly a usage? Is this something I directly charge my customer for? Or let’s say I prompt my copilot, what is my revenue? I get a report out of that and I click on the report, so I actually get insights out of my prompt. I can do 10 prompts, not charge, but as soon as I click on the report in this case. Then lastly, there’s the most difficult one, is to actually benefit from I’m looking at this report, it was the right report, however I’m looking at it, approving it or I’m exporting it to use for whatever or… Via API, push it to my Power BI solution. That’s where I get my value, put my price point right there. Those are three different options to choose from. Is it Pay as you click, Pay as you discover, or Pay as you benefit? I think that’s a big is now, for example, Lovable growing fast, but they charge based on prompts.

[00:00:13.460] – Kevin

I noticed somebody complaining today or yesterday that he had to do 200 times a prompt to get a certain issue fixed. So it’s not actually charging on value, it’s more charging you on the prompt. Where you say you can do it on prompt, click, or actual value, somebody gets out of it. It’s so dependent on the market solution, the problem that you are solving. So in this case, it could be fair. But also then if you If you put your pricing point on outcome value on benefit, the price point will be much higher. It has to be much higher. If you look, for instance, I’m just giving super strange examples, most likely, but if you look at a marketing tech solution, and let’s say it’s around Google Ads or whatever. If I would have to pay for this solution based on every time somebody clicks on my Google Ads, that cost of Google Ads, and I would have the cost of this solution, it might be expensive in the end. The The value might not be there. However, in this model, do it as soon as somebody clicks on our ads, looks at my landing page, and it converts into a demonstration.

[00:00:50.300] – Kevin

That’s the point where I pay, let’s say, €100 for one lead getting in. Super attentionable. If I get €100 opportunities, this is the amount I pay. Based on my numbers, out of €100 demos, at least €50 of them convert into an in-depth demo, or €100 Maybe even Sandbox phases or whatever.

[00:00:59.740] – Joran

Out of that, I will know by heart, we close 15 accounts taking our ACV. This should be the revenue we get out of that. Super tangible and therefore willing to pay more based on outcome. Yeah, it’s interesting because you can compare charging based on the lead funnel. You can look at CPC, CPL, Rev Share, and that’s what you’re saying. Yeah, in this case, in this particular, it’s all about a super simple return on investment calculation or cost of calculation. But of course, let’s take Younium as an example. The question that you would always have to ask yourself as a B2B founder, what am I really selling? And that’s not a marketing tech solution. That’s not the fintech solution or whatever. The bottom line is, what am I really selling? What’s the value? The value is not crazy. We can produce an invoice faster or we can get more leads in. That’s not really the bottom line. The biggest mistake that I see is taking your SME our SMB pricing model and replicating that into an enterprise sales cycle. 60% of all SaaS companies will transition into a usage-based price platform, pay-as-you-go, price model.

[00:01:34.980] – Kevin

The reality is we haven’t seen that.

[00:01:36.220] – Joran

However, we do see AI pop-ups, you can name drop them, but they do transition into a usage model. In today’s This episode, we’re going to talk about future-proof SaaS pricing. Strategies for your SaaS pricing with the rise of AI and beyond this era.

[00:01:44.230] – Kevin

My guest today is Kevin Lent. Kevin is the Commercial Director Europe at Younium. Before joining Younium, he built his career in sales leadership, commercial roles across several SaaS companies, helping them to scale and optimize their revenue operations. With a strong background in subscription management, revenue recognition, and data-driven growth strategies, Kevin helps B2B SaaS companies tackle the complexities of pricing, billing,optimization at scale. Welcome to the show, Kevin. Thank you for having me, Johan. We’re going to dive right in. Why is getting the right pricing model important for B2B SaaS founders today? The pricing of your solution is something every founder, revenue leader, CFO is constantly questioning, comparing, improving. Do you want to get the right revenue for the investment that you made on product development, but also the cost of sales because there’s much more to it. I look at pricing and the model of it from a sales perspective, from a commercial operation perspective. Return on investment is super important. When do I get my revenue back out of a contract, et cetera? However, I think if you look at the B2B SaaS company or any SaaS company, I would say velocity is super important.

[00:02:23.710] – Kevin

You want to get traction. The question that I sometimes ask to a customer or a partner, how easy is it to become a customer. That depends a lot on your SaaS solution, obviously. There are things that are super easily to adapt. Login on the website, create an account, leave your credit card, and done. But there’s, of course, super complex solutions like an ERP system, CRM, or subscription management like Union. That’s something you buy on a click. However, creating a price model that makes it easy or helps it to make a decision, it’s very beneficial for your sales process. Therefore, on scale, it will bring velocity to the growth of your company.

[00:03:08.100] – Joran

When we talk about SaaS pricing in general, what is one of the big misconceptions you see right now that SaaS founders or companies have?

[00:03:19.570] – Kevin

You always have to look at it from two perspectives. One is the perspective of the customer. How easy is it to get on board? Do I want to present a land and expand strategy? Secondly, what is important for B2B SaaS founders is the evaluation of a company. Something that we’ve seen over the last two years is the rise of pay as you go, usage component, and that’s double-sided. Yes, it’s way easier to become a customer if the step to make the decision is really based on value-based outcome. However, an investor, an angel investor, or venture capital for that sense. They will not classify this as recurring revenue. They will classify it as reoccurring revenue. Then perhaps you might have a lot of velocity new customer acquisition, but the evaluation of the company might be put into a different perspective. That’s very much dependent on what stage you are in as a SaaS company. Do you need additional funding to grow at scale? Most often, yes, it’s the case. Then perhaps completely going into usage components This is not the best option. It’s cash flow a problem at the moment. It is interesting to look at that.

[00:04:35.880] – Kevin

The misconception is that going, for instance, either way, going full a Pay as you go is the solution to create velocity in sales. That’s not necessarily the case. Neither is it the case to get a very big contract. Let’s say five-year contract with a 50K, a higher evaluation of your company.

[00:04:57.040] – Joran

We’re going to dive more into Pay as you go value I’ve gone in a little bit. At first, I guess, wanted to then go deeper on the second thing you mentioned, having the bigger ACVs. I think that’s one of the bigger mistakes companies make while determining pricing or growing a company that want to go to enterprise, probably a bit too quickly. Can you dive deeper into that and maybe some other common mistakes companies make?

[00:05:22.590] – Kevin

Absolutely. Throughout my career, I’ve seen both clients, but also a lot of companies that I work at or people that came to me, Can you help me with is, we want to go enterprise. My first question will be, why? There is a huge misconception on going to enterprise. Maybe it’s right. We all see it as the Caribbean of the economy. As soon as you are in enterprise sales, things will fly. It’s not the case. Actually, I think an individual that we all know very well is Jaco van der Koy. He wrote several books, which most of them I read. The question is, are you actually making more revenue in enterprise? And are your costs the same? Or are you spending more time on enterprise deals and existing customers, then you’re actually making revenue? To talk about the biggest misconception in that sense is, the biggest mistake that I see is taking your SME or SMB pricing model and replicating Taking that into an enterprise sales cycle. Let’s take an average SMB customer and our MRR out of that will be €1,000 based on 10 seats. It’s simply not the case that in enterprise, it would mean you’re making 10X the amount of revenue if you’re selling 10X the amount of seats.

[00:06:51.130] – Kevin

It’s simply not the case. That’s definitely the biggest misconstruction I’ve seen for a bike career.

[00:06:57.010] – Joran

If you turn it around a bit or look at maybe even our For example, we have a PLG approach. We can address any company they can purchase themselves, including enterprise, where sometimes you think, Okay, we’re way too cheap for them because in the end, you are going to do more for them. So indeed, I agree. We spend a lot more time on the bigger clients, but they’re actually paying the same amount than some other companies. If you want to go enterprise, what would be the best way to do?

[00:07:24.700] – Kevin

Good question, and there’s no simple answer. In the case of coming from a PLG scenario, There’s a lot of takes on PLG in general. I think PLG is a super interesting topic because there is this flavor of PLG. Let’s say you’re selling to self-employed individuals. Let’s take the smallest bunch. I log in to the website, leave my credit card payment method, and get the environment, then boom, I’m up and running. To replicate that motion into SMB, let’s say we now want people that have 10 employees or 20 Please, becoming a customer in the same way. Step number one, is it the same amount of effort for the client himself to onboard? Two, does your pricing model still make sense? Are you making enough revenue out of this account in terms of perhaps additional implementation that you have to do or guidance? That’s a small step. Then the last step would be, let’s say we’re trying to get Salesforce on board. Salesforce logs into our website, creates an account, and creates accounts seats for 10,000 employees. Is that realistic? Most likely no is the answer. The thing is, we got stuck on this PLG mindset where one leaves their credit card in details and becomes a customer and boom, is live.

[00:08:51.820] – Kevin

Plg can do more. You can use PLG in the enterprise to get leads in. This is not necessarily bound to sign the deal on the login, but maybe they get access to the environment. They don’t have to leave credit card payments. They get a trial or whatever. During their trial, they are getting pop-ups like, Hey, did you know we have this feature? Contact us for a full demonstration. It becomes more of an inbound channel for your enterprise sales department. That’s where you can spend hours with sales, with solution architect, project to really create the full scope of what is the reason that you came to us? What are you running into? What have you tried to solve this earlier? Did you make a decision on it back then? How can we achieve what you are looking for? How will we need to do this set-up? Then you’re coming way more into a value-based selling proposition. Then, again, the pricing model that you used to sell to solo entrepreneurs, doesn’t apply to this enterprise sales force deal. Clearly, try to make a distinction. We’re self-employed individuals then SMB SME, and then more in the enterprise section.

[00:10:13.600] – Kevin

They require different sales motions, right?

[00:10:18.550] – Joran

Yeah, because in the end, as you mentioned, our key PLG get the leads in, but then segment them based on the data you have on them because you know the company name exactly, all the integrations, how big they are, the revenue they do, and then push it over to sales to ask the proper questions. But then maybe a practical one, they would still see the pricing on the site. How would you… You can deal with that. They would see the plan starts at X. You went into this trajectory to do the value-based selling. Then you’re going to say, you fall into our enterprise bucket. How do you justify charging them more?

[00:10:53.200] – Kevin

The question is, are you charging them more? Because, again, that’s the assumption of going to enterprise. Because my gut feeling will be, of course, the invoice amount will be higher than you sent to a solo entrepreneur. But are you charging them more per user? That’s most likely the answer is no, or 100% sure the answer is no. That’s a very important thing to understand. To mitigate that conversation, it’s very straightforward. What I do in those sales cycles, you are super transparent. You tell them it’s different to get the baby on the corner as a That’s something different to get you on board. Therefore, where you usually don’t work with the long-boarding fee, maybe in this case you do, to, again, mitigate the customer acquisition cost, for instance, but also the return on investment on this case. I think there’s nobody surprised in that space if you do price differently. But again, perhaps you need a good thing to mention. Most likely your price per seat or outcome will be lower, but the volume will create a higher.

[00:11:59.820] – Joran

You We talked about it already, the Pay as you go value-based outcome, pricing the reoccurring revenue, as you mentioned it, because with the rise of AI, more and more companies are now dropping the seed-based pricing, which we just discussed with the sales, for example, and they’re going more in towards the actual value a SaaS brings rather than the number of people using it. It’s going to be super hard, I guess, to answer, but do you think it’s the future of SaaS pricing? Should SaaS companies consider implementing in 2025? How do you look at that?

[00:12:29.990] – Kevin

This topic has been going on for years, but in the last two years, I think there was two years in a row where there were some statement made in the market. This year, 60% of all SaaS companies will transition into a usage-based price model, Pay as you go, price model. The reality is we haven’t seen that. However, we do see AI pop-ups, even main drop them, but they do transition into a usage model, a Pay as you go model. I I think it is super, super hard if you are a prominent B2B SaaS company. Let’s say you’re above 50 employees, you’re established, you maybe have around 100 customers, and therefore, maybe even in total, 50 or more cases in the pipe, it is super difficult to completely change your pricing model into completely Bayesha Go model for many reasons. As mentioned before, the evaluation of the company Can he even more also, can my tech stack handle this way of pricing? If you would start from scratch today, I think, yes, it’s fairly easy and a good take to go on Pay as you go. But I would always, and that is something I do see as the combination of both have a recurring revenue stream that covers a base cost, provide a predictable revenue stream, and You have a usage component on top that will benefit the customer and benefit you as well on the end.

[00:14:05.580] – Joran

When starting out, it’s best to do recurring plus reoccurring. When you are already established, it’s probably going to be super hard to change.

[00:14:14.780] – Kevin

It is definitely hard to change. We hear almost every company talking about it. What I see mostly is that there are new features, for instance, that will be a usage-based component, and especially a new AI feature. Something that is super popular, you see almost every company, SaaS company, doing this is having a copilot function or being able to predict certain things with AI. This is what we typically right now see. If a company launches this, they do this on a pay-as-you-go, pay-as-outcome basis. Good to mention, as a usage component, there are different steps, dependent on what you’re providing, what is the value you’re bringing with this feature. Different ways of of pricing into a Pay as you go. Is it Pay as you click? Let’s say we’re using this copilot thing as an example. I want to ask my copilot, what is my revenue? As I write this prompt, push it to the bot, is this directly a usage? Is this something I’m directly charged my customer for? Or let’s say I prompt my copilot, what is my revenue? I get a report out of that and I click on the report. I actually get insights out of my product.

[00:15:33.230] – Kevin

I can do 10 prompts, not charge, but as soon as I click on the report in this case. Then lastly, there’s the most difficult one, is to actually benefit from this report. I’m looking at this report, it was the right report, however I’m looking at it, approving it or I’m exporting it to use for whatever or via API push it to my Power BI solution. That’s where I get value, put my price point right there. Those are three different options to choose from. Is it Pay as you click, Pay as you discover, or Pay as you benefit?

[00:16:12.910] – Joran

I think that’s a big difference now. For example, Lovable growing fast, but they charge based on prompts. I noticed somebody complaining today or yesterday that he had to do 200 times a prompt to get a certain issue fixed. It’s not actually charging on value, it’s more targeting you on the prompt, where you say you can do it on prompt, click, or actual value somebody gets out of it.

[00:16:37.230] – Kevin

It’s so dependent on market solution, the problem that you are solving. In this case, it could be fair, but also then if you put your pricing point on outcome value on benefit, the price point will be much higher. It has to be much higher. If you look, for instance, I’m just giving super strange examples, most likely, but if you look at the marketing tech solution, and let’s say it’s around Google My Google Ads or whatever. If I would have to pay for this solution based on every time somebody clicks on my Google Ads, that cost of Google Ads, and I would have the cost of this solution, it might be expensive in the end, and the time to value might not be there. However, in this model, do it as soon as somebody clicks on our ads, looks at my landing page, and it converts into a demonstration, and that’s the point where I pay, let’s say, for Juros. For one lead getting in, super tangible. If I get 100 opportunities, this is the amount I pay. Based on my numbers, out of 100 demos, at least 50 of them convert into an in-depth demo or maybe even Sandbox faces or whatever.

[00:17:47.320] – Kevin

Out of that, I will know by heart, we close 15 accounts. Taking our ACV, this should be directly what we get out of that. Super tangible. Therefore, willing to pay more based on outcome.

[00:18:00.050] – Joran

Yeah, it’s interesting because you can compare charging based on the lead funnel. You can look at CPC, CPL, Rev Share, and that’s what you’re saying.

[00:18:08.590] – Kevin

Yeah, in this case, in this particular example, it’s a super simple return on investment calculation or cost of growth calculation. But of course, let’s take Younium as an example. The question that you would always have to ask yourself as a B2B founder, what am I really selling? And that’s not marketing tech solution. That’s not the fintech solution or whatever. The bottom line is, what am I really selling? What’s the value? The value is not crazy. We can produce an invoice faster or we can get more leads in. That’s not really the bottom line. For instance, right at Union, that answer is scalability. We’re selling scalability. Super hard to make that black and white in numbers. We can invoice much easier, so we’re not using three people on the count receivable, but one. Simple calculation, right? But having a calculation of what is the price of scalability is super difficult. Pricing based on outcome is super difficult. We would have to take a step back in that sense. That could be applicable for your own SaaS company. What is the bottom line of what you’re selling? Is it super hard and super clear? Is there always the exact same return on investment that you can make?

[00:19:26.120] – Kevin

Then you can take the chance to do a based paper benefit paper outcome, value-based version with high price per usage. That last step, that benefit, because it’s a fairly simple return on investment. If there’s more to what you actually sell, scalability or transparency, how are you going to make transparency hard in a return on investment? We all know we need it, we all know we want it, but it’s super hard to pinpoint the price point to that. Then you want to take a few steps back and choose a safe zone.

[00:20:00.350] – Joran

Yeah, pricing is a constant thing you want to improve. We also mentioned, okay, if you’re going to go towards the value-based outcome, you might want to even start with a couple of features. When are you really selling? People struggle with their pricing. I think that’s the thing, which is, I guess, within SaaS all the time. What would you recommend here? You mentioned, what are you really selling? What is the bottom line? If people now think, okay, I want to make some changes to my SaaS pricing, what would be almost like a step-by-step approach they could follow?

[00:20:27.530] – Kevin

Every B2B SaaS founder is watching us less open some Excel sheets, let’s do calculations, let’s run some trial and error, and where do we find those momentum where usage components outgrow recurring revenue? Maybe I can point you to the right individual, some guidebooks to download 200 things and do all the calculations, but maybe it’s fairly simple to take a few steps back. Step one is, how am I pricing compared to competitors? I know we all say we don’t have competitors. We’re the most unique solution in the world. But most likely there is someone that do something similar to you or in a different industry with a different solution. To look at their pricing goals, to get some comparison. How are other SaaS companies doing What do we do more or less? We’re in a broad line. How are they pricing and why are they pricing? That could be something. But then secondly, we’re all still human after all. If you are a B2B SaaS founder at a certain stage, You most likely have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 existing customers that became a customer from day one. They’re happy using your solution, they are paying their invoices.

[00:21:43.580] – Kevin

Why don’t you have an open dialog with some of your best-performing clients? Share that open thoughts like, Hey, you’re a founder, I’m a founder. You’re using our platform, you’re benefiting from it, you’re happy, you’re paying for it. But I’m thinking of potentially changing the pricing model. I haven’t made up in my mind. But these are three options that I think of. How would this resonate for you? If I implemented this pricing option, option A, would you still have bought us that easily as you did two years ago? Or a year ago. I think that’s where you will find a lot of answers. Because maybe also a misconception, or I would say one of the points, the biggest mistake that you can make is to go all in. We found a new pricing model. It runs in all spreadsheets. It works in all the numbers. First of January, real life, we’re only selling this. This is the only way how we sell it. Again, taking in consideration how much pricing affects your sales cycle, you can run into momentum if your pricing model, for whatever reason, doesn’t fit the market or your potential clients. And you have a three-month sales cycle, for instance.

[00:23:02.100] – Kevin

You can run into a momentum of not being able to sell for a month or two or three. We all know the pain of that, right?

[00:23:12.260] – Joran

Yeah, because it’s going to take time to figure out things are broken and during that time.

[00:23:17.010] – Kevin

Exactly. Let’s say in these three months, you learned, you figured out our new pricing model is not right. We set it as we had hoped. We need to go back to our old pricing model, or even worse, we need to figure out something new again. If you have a three-month sales cycle, you will run into another three months of an empty pipe, or maybe a full pipe without deals. That will leave you with six months without your business revenue. Of course, there’s always something you can close or whatever, but not on target. That’s the situation we all want to avoid.

[00:23:48.910] – Joran

Are you struggling to find a cost-effective and scalable marketing channel? Check out where it is. We help you to have other people recommend your SaaS, and you would only pay them when they deliver you paid clients, making a very cost-effective and scalable marketing channel. Want to learn more? Go to getReditus. Com. Let’s go towards the positive side. I’ve been asking about mistakes, misconceptions. If we turn it around, are there any best practices regarding SaaS pricing you can share?

[00:24:16.460] – Kevin

Keep the main focus cost of development, et cetera. Keep these things into consideration. You need to know on the bottom lines how much are we spending on developed product and existing development costs. Super important to have that point out for yourself. Secondly, understand how much is my customer acquisition cost and customer retention cost, the cost of marketing and sales combined to get a customer on board, all cost in that. But then secondly, also the cost of having a customer. Again, The misconception is an enterprise deal driving more revenue for us than we think or that we should. First of all is having those costs all sharp. Put it somewhere in an Excel sheet, leave it there. Then secondly, Make sure you understand how much value you are adding to your customers. Can they do 10x the amount of revenue because of our solution? Super simple, right? Return on investment. Are they able to hire twice as many people this year because of our solution? Make a global return on investment schedule. How does it look? What are my costs? How much is my customer benefiting from this? How much are they making out of my solution?

[00:25:25.380] – Kevin

There are different things to make harder numbers, scalability, transparency, but at least At least have something based in a sheet or an overview. Then secondly, thinking, how easy is it to become a customer? How easy is it to make a decision? You need to find a price point that brings back revenue either at the end of the first year or at going into renewal or second year. Let’s say somewhere around one and a half years is where you want to start really making revenue on your customers. That will give you some number where you know the cost of development, sales, customer retention, regional investment that my customer is making, and the revenue that I need to in a year or one year and a half, two years they live. It could be three years, dependent on your market. It could be dependent on your market, it could be a month, great. We all want that. But understand that picture. How much revenue do I need to make out of an account to make it feasible? Then there’s much more to it. How much leads do we get in a month? How much can we approve from conversion ratio to leads in that demo?

[00:26:41.120] – Kevin

I’m not talking about sales-lapse growth. This could be applicable to BLG, How much difference can I make in each stage of becoming a customer? When you have these metrics, this whole number will arise. This is what I need per customer. If we close 10 customers, if we close 100 customers, et cetera. Then the price model, right? What do my customers tend to commonly use in my industry? Make a version of that. Today, I would say that has something of a recurring component which is not super. You’re not paying always €10,000 a month. You get access to the platform, and then you’re paying €50 a month for usage, or €60 if you had a busy month. Find a thin line where you get a solid revenue stream and return. So you’re covering some of your cost there. But then on top of that, have that usage component that pay as you go, pay as you benefit however right will work for you best. To share a little bit of risk with your customer. Because that’s what purchasers want to see in 2025, and I assume beyond. I’m taking a risk, maybe with my job, buying your solution with our team.

[00:28:00.660] – Kevin

The company will benefit greatly if it works good, but the company will have a strategy if this project fails, right? So share a bit of risk where we can have this recurring revenue stream, and if it’s successful, we’re willing to pay. But if we’re not getting value or not using it as much as intended, then there might be a dinner night. Then on top of that, I think also onboarding fees is something that is common. I think it’s a price point that should be owned not by sales. It’s a price point that should be owned by professional services or customer success, dependent on your organization or maybe even product. To make sure you don’t make a loss on customers. Super important. That would be my biggest advice. Again, there’s so many… We’re talking about B2B SaaS, we’re more or less all in the same boat. However, fintech is often priced way differently than CRM is. And then payroll software is usually priced way differently than seed-based pricing, usually. And market tech, again, different story.

[00:29:11.360] – Joran

I like how you phrase it like you share the risk. It’s not just, I guess, you’re going to charge more when they use your product more, but you’re actually turning it around like where if they don’t get the value, they’re not paying for it. You’re sharing the risk. If it doesn’t work out, you both get hurt in a way.

[00:29:30.810] – Kevin

Yeah, there is this pyramid that you must have seen somewhere. On one side, there’s perpetual licensing, as we know from over 10, 15 years ago. And on the right side, it’s like a clock that goes like this. On the right side there or on The other side, I should say, there is pay as you go paper value. If you’re talking about risks, back in the day, 15 years ago, you would buy Adobe, right? You would pay, I don’t know what it cost back then, I have no clue, but let’s say 30,000 euros, you get the software installed on the server locally. I, as a buyer, took all the risk. I paid for it, it’s mine, and I have to make sure my team uses it. I have to make sure it runs, build custom work into it, support is on me, et cetera. I’m taking that risk. So we go from perpetual licensing, right? One-off fee, boom, big amount is my product. Then we go into SaaS, right? Maybe having a three-year, five-year contract in the middle is an annual subscription. I’m buying a license to get access to this cloud solution where I’m paying annually.

[00:30:37.680] – Kevin

Yes, I’m taking risk there, but the vendor is most likely not making much revenue on the first year, shared risk. Then all the way to the right side where I’m simply only paying as a customer when I close a deal because of this software, or when I hire an individual because of this software. Then my vendor selling The company is taking all the risk in the reality should be somewhere in the middle, to be fair. Then you try taking a little bit of a component maybe. Have a fixed fee for… Let’s take an example of a complex contract. We have a three-year contract for a recurring relatively low fee. There’s a pay as you go component to it that share the risk. So play around with it. Who’s taking the risk and who’s getting the value? What’s the right point in that?

[00:31:27.770] – Joran

Yeah, because no matter how convinced you are of your own SaaS, you can’t take all the risk yourself. In the end, you’ll probably attract the wrong customers. I agree, fully agree.

[00:31:36.180] – Kevin

It’s a very valid point.

[00:31:37.830] – Joran

Made that mistake in the past where we went too much on value at one point. You get the wrong companies in.

[00:31:43.370] – Kevin

Yes, it’s a completely different conversation. In the end, it’s a sailing moment. Your SaaS company is a sailing moment. The sales have to be in the correct tension. The steer has to be in the right direction. But then you also need the wind to be in the right direction. If the wind changes, you need to adjust everything. Everything. In that sense, everything in your SaaS company has to be aligned on the same goal. This goes beyond prioritization of price models. Who am I selling to? What is your ICP? To give a little bit of a hint of that, an ICP is not a company of all 500 employees. That’s not the definition of an ideal customer profile. One is pinpointing that. Right from start, marketing targets the right accounts, sales targets the right accounts. Similar accounts, what’s the commonality between them? All the way to your pricing model should resonate with the audience. If you’re selling to manufacturing companies with 5,000 employees, but you’re also selling to SaaS startups. Your pricing model could have a hard time matching those two audiences. For me, something I’ve relatively done at several companies is, first step is getting that ICP crystal clear.

[00:33:02.810] – Kevin

And what we do at Uni, we classify ICPs in six accounts. So there’s one out of six, two out of six, right? Yeah. And the companies that have five or six out of six classification of ICP, the only accounts we want to talk to. If they’re below that, we’re not talking to them. We’re not spending any money on ads targeting those individuals. For many reasons, is this customer going to benefit greatly from our solution? Secondly, will they pay their invoices? We know the six out of six ICP companies, that’s our perfect sweet spot in the market. There we can spend money. There we can invest in marketing sales and solutions, et cetera. But even more important, we can develop our solution towards that ICP. When we’re talking to this ICP, we know we are the best player in the market for them because everything we develop, everything that we talk about, everything that we share on socials or in meetings is started around this ICP. Therefore, also our pricing rule is applicable for this ICP company.

[00:34:11.820] – Joran

Yeah, and all the other things you mentioned make complete sense. You know what value you’re driving towards them. If you change your pricing, you can talk about clients who fit the ICP, then make sure it fits the other companies within this bucket. Makes complete sense. Start with the foundation of the company, who you’re targeting, and then adjust everything according to this. We are going to start wrapping things up. If you would have to summarize your best advice on SaaS pricing in one or two sentences, what would you say?

[00:34:43.110] – Kevin

The last conversation that we just had Why? Does it make sense to, one, reassess your current pricing model? Why do you want to do that? But step one is clearly defining to who am I selling and why am I selling to for these companies? You can completely reassess your pricing model in the most sexy sense and the most velocity-creating sales cycle. If your target audience doesn’t resonate with your pricing model, and therefore the trip to the entire organization. Development is creating features for one specific customer that never will be applicable to any other customer. Then you got to first establish, who am I selling and why am I selling to them? And then from there on, take a take on your pricing with all the metrics taken into consideration. Customer acquisition cost, customer retention, cost of development. Return on investment for your client with a rough estimation.

[00:35:47.220] – Joran

Makes sense. Love it. If we’re going to talk about the final two questions, like how to grow a B2B company in general, feel free to repeat yourself a little bit. What advice would you give a SaaS founder who just starting out and trying to grow the 10K monthly recurring revenue.

[00:36:04.910] – Kevin

In the beginning, at the very first stage, you just, let’s say, you found a buddy, you developed a super strong solution that you think is applicable to a certain market or a certain problem that you’re solving, which is, strangely enough, very contradicting to what I said before, but get in what you need to get in. Because the first few customers, they will teach you so much. Let’s say you’re selling a 1K MR solution, you get 10 customers in. Likely, your first customers are easier. You’re a previous employer or you see that you get in via your network. Just get it in. From there, you are going to learn. You’re going to learn so much. We have this HR tech solution that we have, and we’re selling it now to 10 employees SaaS company. What are we learning there? What are they benefit from? What are they doing in counter with SaaS? Secondly, Maybe we close our first 100 employee taxi driver company. Just thinking of things, right? What do we see there? How happy are they with this? If you have those first 10 customers, find the commonality between them, right? What is working super well in which industry?

[00:37:20.130] – Joran

Let’s say we indeed hit the 10K MR, found the commonalities, what advice would you give SaaS founders? This is a big step. Who are growing towards 10 million ARR?

[00:37:29.520] – Kevin

Yeah, exactly. What I ideally would like to say, 10K MR, let’s move it a little bit upwards. You reach that close to 1 million ARR record. By then, you should have defined, Hey, we’ve got 10 or 50 customers, of course, dependent on your ACV. But what are we good at? Where do we, as founders, come from? What do we see the commonality in the clients that we have? Let’s say you have 20 customers. That’s stupid. It’s help, perhaps. Ten of them are taxi companies. Then maybe that’s something you’re good at. Maybe it’s something you should stick with. Maybe that’s something your solution should be core focused on. Let’s say in this case, I think the cab driver, Exalt, are there enough cab drivers in Amsterdam? The answer is yes. Are there enough cab drivers in the Netherlands? In this case, the Netherlands, to scale our company to 10 million. Is that the answer? Most likely, you want to say if you corely focus on cab drivers, maybe it’s something. Maybe you already realized super early if you make some calculations, total addressable market, total deliverable market, total sellable market. Is that perhaps Europe? Or is it perhaps globally?

[00:38:50.240] – Kevin

Could be the answer. Don’t be afraid in that sense. But if that is the answer, we want to be the most prominent taxi driver, cab driver solution in the world, then that’s the answer. You have to, in this sense, a little bit, again, think of your sales process. Again, how much velocity can I create? How easy is it to close an account? The thing is, what you are solving, there are likely five other vendors in the world that can solve this, or in a similar manner. However, if you are talking to a CapDrivers’ company, to the CEO of this CapDrivers’ company with 10,000 CapDrivers, and they are talking to five vendors, and one comes from 10,000 employees, they solve this in every market, and they solve this in manufacturing, they solve it in business. They solve it in construction, You are the only one where the story is, we do cab drivers, we don’t do anything other than cab drivers. We understand your day-to-day operation. We know you run it to this. We know you have to lease cars. You want How do you bound that to employees? I don’t know. If that is your story, you will win out of these five accounts.

[00:40:09.700] – Kevin

So one is make sure you have a strong story on your ideal customer profile by pinpointing a vertical who you can win. Then ask yourself, is that vertical big enough to just do the Netherlands or just do DACH or wherever our watchers are tuning in from? Create a target audience that’s larger enough. If Europe is the answer, Europe is the answer. Then from there on, stick to that ICP go. Because if you resonate with your target audience, you will be the preferred supplier if you’re corely solving for them. The story from that one is the same. You will solve their problem by everything you’re going to develop in your platform because it’s purposely and solves problems for cat drivers, taxi companies in this case. That’s just step one. Clearly, ICB, this is the type of accounts we’re going to close. We are the best in this vertical. We’re going to do that. Is the target audience large enough in my domestic country or do I need to go globally or continental? Then secondly, there are stages all the way to 10 million ARR. Again, classifying, do we want to do this in a PLG motion on smaller accounts?

[00:41:28.380] – Kevin

I would say around 5 million in revenue, maybe above that. You should stick to that motion to keep the focus on that motion, to keep the focus on the target audience. At some point, let’s say between 5 and 8 million, you want to include a second go-to-market motion. It could be partner-led. If we have a cab driver’s come up and it becomes a customer and they have 10,000 cabs in their service or employees in their service, they will benefit way more from us and we It’s all right. Drive more revenue out of that. If you found that answer, make sure you address that market with a different motion. There could be overlapping cases where they still want to log into the system first before they get in touch with sales. But make sure You address that market, the size of companies inside your vertical in a different manner than you address the smaller part of it. I think if you stick with that, raise your focus. Everyone in the organization, from development, support, customer success, sales, marketing, everyone knows these are our ID customer profiles, and they will love us because we do what we do.

[00:42:38.710] – Kevin

That’s where hyper growth should come in.

[00:42:42.780] – Joran

We came all the way to the beginning. I ICP. I think that’s where it all starts. Let me try to summarize. Pricing is a constant thing. Keep improving, but make sure you know your ICP. This is exactly where you end at and where we’re going to start again. But of course, you need to know your cost to identify pricing, customer acquisition cost, having a customer, the pricing for that. What is the actual value you’re driving? How easy is it to become a customer? How much customers do you actually need to make revenue? Then try to create a recurring stream plus a reoccurring stream based on value so you can share the risk together. Want to go enterprise? Ask yourself, does your pricing model make sense? You can use PLG to get leads and close things off with sales. Going enterprise doesn’t mean you just can 10X your pricing. When you go for pay as you go pricing, it’s value-based outcome, but it’s also reoccurring revenue. That’s going to be user-based only, which might not be ideal. If you’re going to start, try to do recurring plus reoccurring starting out. It could be a really great way to start.

[00:43:44.640] – Joran

It Is it going to be super hard to change your pricing model because you are going to change the valuation of your company. You probably need to change stack. If you are looking to change, start with new features, think about ways to charge. Is it on prompts, clicks on the actual value? When you are going to charge on value, it has to be higher because the value score is different. Want to change your pricing, figure out what are you really selling, what is the bottom line you deliver, how do you compare to competitors, have an open dialog with your early customers to figure out, would they be willing to pay what you have in mind? 10k MR, get anyone in to learn about commonalities amongst them. And then 10 million ARR, first 1 million ARR, define what you’re good at Are there enough customers in your ICP to grow to 10 million ARR and to make full circle, create your target audience, stick with it, keep resonating, keep solving their problem and focusing on your ICP. That was it?

[00:44:42.700] – Kevin

That was it.

[00:44:43.700] – Joran

That was it? Nice. If people want to get in contact with you, Kevin, how can they do?

[00:44:47.920] – Kevin

Always feel free to add me on LinkedIn and send me a message. Happy to have a conversation and help a little bit here and there. Yeah, file on LinkedIn, you can find me.

[00:44:56.850] – Joran

Cool. We’re going to add a link to your profile, Kevin Lams. And if people are listening now on Spotify, please leave us a review so we can boost the algorithms over there. And we’re going to add a poll because I’m always curious to hear what you think of this episode. Thanks again, Kevin, for coming on.

[00:45:14.500] – Kevin

My pleasure. Thank you, everyone.

[00:45:16.140] – Joran

Thank you for watching this show of the Grow Your B2B SaaS podcast. You made it till the end, so I think we can assume you like this content. If you did, give us a thumbs up, subscribe to the channel. If you like this content, feel free to reach out if you want to sponsor the show. If you have a specific guest in mind, if you have a specific topic you want us to cover, reach out to me on LinkedIn. More than happy to take a look at it. If you want to know more about Reditus, feel free to reach out as well. But for now, have a great day and good luck growing your B2B SaaS.