S7E8 – The Growth Operating System: Building Teams That Deliver Real Value

Are you a SaaS founder wondering How to Build a Growth Operating System That Helps Teams Deliver Real Value? Growing a B2B SaaS company can often feel messy. Teams try lots of different tactics, hoping that something will finally work. But this kind of scattered approach rarely leads to long-term, repeatable success. In this episode of the Grow Your B2B SaaS Podcast Joran Hofman sits down with growth expert and coach Andrew Capland. Andrew explains how to move beyond one-off growth hacks and start building what he calls a Growth Operating System. This system helps teams focus on delivering real value, work together more effectively, and create results that can scale over time.

Why Build a Growth Operating System?

Andrew didn’t set out to create a Growth Operating System just because it sounded impressive. It came from a place of frustration. He had read every book and article he could find on growth. He studied the popular content and frameworks from places like Reforge and YouTube. He felt like he had the right ideas, but when it came time to put them into practice, things kept falling apart. He would run into engineers who didn’t understand the value of his experiments. He struggled to explain technical growth concepts to executives. He faced resistance from within the company. Over time, he realized that while the ideas were often simple, the hard part was execution. That’s when he started building a system to help him act on the strategies he believed in. After coaching over 75 growth leaders, he turned that system into a repeatable framework.

When to Build a Growth OS

At the very beginning of a company’s journey, Andrew believes you should focus on tactics. In the early days, it’s all about staying alive and doing what works, even if it’s messy. But once you start hiring more people, developing a more formal strategy, and involving multiple teams in growth efforts, things change. That’s the point where a Growth Operating System becomes necessary. It helps you move from random, disconnected efforts to a structured approach where everyone is on the same page. You start collecting learnings, setting up rituals like weekly reviews, and creating materials that can help train and onboard new team members. When growth becomes a team effort rather than a solo act, you need systems in place.

The Two Core Growth Documents You Need

Andrew says that every growth team should have two main documents. The first is the Growth Strategy, which outlines what you’re trying to do, why it matters, what success looks like, and what resources are involved. The second is the Growth Operations Manual, which explains how to execute the strategy and overcome the practical challenges that come up along the way. This manual includes things like experiment tracking, key performance indicators, meeting cadences, templates for planning and reporting, and decision-making frameworks that reflect the company’s values and priorities. These two documents give your team a clear path and help you stay organized as you grow.

Start With a North Star Metric

Most teams don’t start out with a fully developed strategy, and that’s fine. The important thing is to begin by identifying a North Star metric. This is the key number that reflects your most important business goal. From there, you can build a vision of what success looks like once that metric improves. Then you can identify the two or three core levers that will move that metric in the right direction. Once you’ve done that, you can design a set of initiatives based on those levers and set milestones to track progress. This gives your team clarity from the big picture all the way down to daily execution.

Choosing the Right North Star: Activation or Retention

It’s important to choose the right kind of North Star. Company-wide revenue goals like reaching $10 million in annual recurring revenue are useful but not specific enough for a growth team. Instead, Andrew recommends choosing input metrics that lead to those outcomes. Typically, the most powerful inputs are activation and retention. Activation refers to the moment when a new user first experiences real value from your product. This is a key step in the customer journey and often predicts whether they will become a long-term user. Retention is about whether users continue getting value over time. If you define your activation moment well, users who reach it are often five to six times more likely to convert than those who don’t.

How to Find Your Activation Moment

To figure out your product’s activation moment, Andrew suggests asking long-term paying customers a simple question: when did it first click for you? What was the moment when you realized this product was going to help you achieve your goals? Most people will describe the same general moment in slightly different ways. That’s your activation point. In more technical products, the activation moment might involve creating an account, setting up code, integrating data, or using the tool with real customer information. Even if it takes longer, activation usually happens when users first connect the product to their own real-world context.

Growth Is Not a Silo

Andrew believes that growth can’t live in isolation. Every team has valuable information about your users. Sales understands the ideal customer profile and what excites people during the sales process. Customer success knows why people churn and what keeps them engaged. Product teams understand user behavior and feedback. A strong growth leader pulls in insights from all these areas and builds a plan based on that input. While many people can contribute, there still needs to be clear ownership over the final strategy and who is responsible for getting results.

Earn Trust by Understanding the Problem

According to Andrew, the person who understands a problem in the most detail usually gets the authority to solve it. Early in his career, he was a marketer who noticed a lot of users were signing up but not getting value. He became obsessed with activation, even though that area technically belonged to the product team. He signed up for the product every day and recorded friction points. He watched user sessions to see where people got stuck. He analyzed data for trends. Eventually, he brought all this to leadership. At first, they simply added his ideas to the backlog. But over time, they invited him to collaborate on changes. Eventually, he led his own team to solve the issue. His takeaway is that you shouldn’t wait for permission. If you understand the problem better than anyone else, people will ask you to lead the solution.

The Founder’s Role in Growth

In the early stages of a startup, the founder usually owns growth. Even if they hire a head of growth early, that person is often just executing on a known opportunity. As the business grows, the nature of growth changes. It becomes less about known tasks and more about uncovering unknown opportunities. At that stage, the growth leader must be able to spot new areas for improvement, model potential outcomes, and align the leadership team around pursuing them.

Avoid Copying Other Companies

One common mistake Andrew sees is copying what worked for someone else. He once built a beautifully designed referral program inspired by Airbnb. It looked great but failed completely. The reason was that it didn’t fit his company’s audience, timing, or product. Growth strategies aren’t one-size-fits-all. What works depends on your customer, your product, and your stage. The most important skill is not collecting ideas but identifying the right problem to solve for your unique situation.

How to Handle Failed Experiments

Growth is emotional work. Many growth leaders tie their self-worth to their latest results. Andrew uses two practices to manage this. First, he keeps what he calls a “trophy file,” where he writes down three wins from each day. These can be small things, like a kind message or a helpful insight. This habit reminds him that value isn’t only about big outcomes. Second, he plans for learning in every experiment. Before starting a new project, he writes out what he expects to learn if it succeeds or fails. That way, no matter the outcome, the team walks away smarter and better prepared for the next test.

Document Everything and Train AI on It

Andrew keeps a spreadsheet of every A/B test he runs, even in his personal work like his podcast and YouTube channel. For each test, he writes what he hoped to learn, what happened, and why he thinks it happened. Over time, he trained an AI model on this data. The AI can now predict outcomes with around 60 percent accuracy, which is much better than the typical hit rate of 10 percent. His advice is to start building your own dataset. Record your experiments, track your outcomes, and let AI help you make better bets in the future.

The Three Tool Categories Every Growth Team Needs

For early-stage SaaS teams, Andrew suggests focusing on three types of tools. First, you need a CRM or marketing automation tool like HubSpot. This helps you track users and send targeted messages. Second, you need product analytics tools like Mixpanel or PostHog to understand how users interact with your product. Third, use in-product communication tools like Intercom or Appcues to guide users, collect feedback, and support them without heavy development work. These tools help you learn, communicate, and act faster.

Why Documentation Compounds Over Time

Documentation isn’t just helpful for running experiments. It also protects your company’s knowledge as teams grow and change. Most employees don’t stay forever. When you document what you’ve learned and why decisions were made, you avoid repeating mistakes. You also shorten onboarding time for new hires and build a stronger foundation for using AI. Over time, your internal knowledge base becomes one of your company’s biggest assets.

Hiring Your First Growth Lead

Before you hire someone to lead growth, figure out what kind of problem they need to solve. If your biggest challenge is acquiring users, look for someone with a marketing background.

key Timestamps

(00:00) – Cold Open: North Star Metric, Activation vs Retention, and Copying Playbooks Pitfalls

(01:02) – Host Introduction: B2B SaaS Growth Operating System with Andrew Capland

(01:46) – Why Tactics Alone Fail: The Case for a Growth Operating System in B2B SaaS

(02:01) – Andrew’s Journey: From Growth Content to Executing a Growth Operating System

(03:40) – When to Implement a Growth OS: From Random Acts of Growth to Repeatable Systems

(04:20) – Growth OS Building Blocks: Strategy, KPIs, Rituals, Templates, Frameworks

(05:37) – Plug-and-Play Templates: Customizing the Growth Operating System for Your Stage

(06:25) – Growth Strategy 101: North Star, Vision, Levers, Bets, and Milestones

(07:25) – Choosing a North Star Metric: Activation and Retention as Leading Indicators

(08:31) – Activation Example: The Facebook “7 Friends in 5 Days” North Star Metric

(09:43) – Defining Activation: Customer Interviews, Milestones, and Value Realization

(10:47) – Cross-Functional Growth: Sales, Product, CS Inputs and Growth Leadership

(12:26) – Earning Ownership: Become the Expert on the Problem (Activation/Retention)

(15:14) – Sponsor Break: SaaStock Dublin – B2B SaaS Founder Networking and Investors

(16:45) – Founder vs Growth Leader: Ownership Shifts from Early Stage to Scale

(17:35) – Common Growth Mistakes: Copy-Pasting Big Tech Playbooks vs ICP Fit

(19:06) – Case Study: Airbnb Referral Program Copycat That Flopped (and Why)

(20:13) – Managing Growth Setbacks: Trophy File Mindset and Learning-First Experiments

(23:08) – Using AI in Growth: Train on Your A/B Tests, Learnings, and Audience Data

(25:16) – Documentation is a Growth Lever: Standardize Learnings and Onboarding

(26:20) – Hiring Your First Head of Growth: Skill-Problem Fit and Translating Jargon

(28:40) – Alignment First: What Growth Owns, Accountability, and Collaboration Rules

(29:20) – Problem Selection: Scoping High-Leverage Bets and Measuring Outcomes

(30:34) – Low-Volume SaaS: Qualitative Research, Session Recordings, and User Testing

(32:12) – Essential Tool Stack: CRM/Marketing Automation, Product Analytics, In-App Messaging

(33:45) – The Next 2–3 Years: Train AI on Proprietary Growth Data to Predict Outcomes

(35:23) – Stage Advice: From 0–10K MRR—Find One Acquisition Channel and One Retention Channel

(36:19) – Stage Advice: From 10K MRR to $10M ARR—Onboarding, Activation, and Segmentation

(37:30) – Host Recap: Growth OS, Documentation, AI Training, and Segmentation Playbook

(40:02) – Connect with Andrew Capland: LinkedIn, YouTube, DeliveringValue.co

(40:30) – Growth Operating System Details: deliveringvalue.co/os (Price: $497)

Transcription

[00:00:00.000] – Andrew Capland

It’s helpful to take a step back and to think about North Star. What is the thing that you’re working towards? And you can translate that into a vision, which is you can describe what the future looks like when you’ve achieved movement in your North Star, and you can get into the specifics of what the future looks like. The team or the person who understands the problem in the most amount of detail usually gets trusted to implement the most effective solution. So if you’re trying to, let’s just take activation or retention. If you’re trying to improve product activation or product retention, typically, the person who understands that the most eventually is going to be included in the solutioning. One of the biggest mistakes is assuming what worked at this other big, successful company is going to work for us today. And the moment that you’re in, the ICP that you have and the channels that you’ve optimized in the moment that you’re in is really important, I’ve learned. So anytime you try to chase the success of someone else, instead of truly understanding the problem in your audience and the fits that you have within the market and within the channels, nothing really works.

[00:01:02.480] – Joran

In scaling a B2B SaaS, growth too often becomes a game of experimentation, spraying and hoping something would actually stick. What if instead you build a growth operating system that becomes a repeatable, aligned and value-centric engine for your SaaS? My guest today is Andrew Capland. Andrew is a former growth leader. He’s behind the No Guest Work playbook, runs a podcast, builds a community, created a growth operating system, coaches and advises SaaS companies, all centered around delivering real sustainable value through growth. Today, we’ll dig into how to go from running growth hacks to moving to a growth operating system, and how founders can adopt growth discipline early, and what the key rituals, straps, and mindsets are on that journey. Welcome to the show, Andrew.

[00:01:45.280] – Andrew Capland

Appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:46.550] – Joran

We always like to start off with a bit of a story, I guess. Can you take us back to the moment where you first realized that tactics were just not going to cut it anymore, and why did you decided to build a growth operating system?

[00:02:01.310] – Andrew Capland

I never wanted to. This isn’t work that was fun or cool to talk about or felt like it’d be sexy to write LinkedIn content about. It never was that. But like many people who listen to this show, I got consumed learning more about I was about growth. I watched all these old YouTube videos from the early 2010s era. I took Reforge in one of the first cohorts, and I just felt like every piece of content that I could consume about how to grow faster and how to run a growth team, I read it. And I got to this point where I felt like I had a good idea about what to do or stuff that I wanted to do or stuff that other people had done that seemed to work, but I had trouble executing at my company. The content said, Here’s what you should do, but never said, Here’s what to do when you get pushback, or, Here’s what to do when the engineer on your team doesn’t understand why you’re doing this or how to go about the work. And they didn’t really explain how to summarize some of the technical jargon for my C-level folks.

[00:02:54.430] – Andrew Capland

I wasn’t able to execute on all the stuff I was excited to execute on. And what I realized is that the ideas, they’re not easy, but they’re more straightforward. And execution and taking action on those ideas is everything. I eventually created this thing that I now call the growth operating system. At the time, it was just me trying to get some stuff done to help me actually take action on the things that I believed would be impactful.

[00:03:16.680] – Joran

I think that’s nice. We always have so many ideas, but the actual execution, and you’re going to run into roadblocks like I already hear some I run into myself. It’s super funny. If we talk about a growth operating system When they started at the beginning, when should a SaaS founder even thinking about setting it up? Should they be doing it early or maybe start with tactics, worry about it later? What’s your opinion here?

[00:03:40.940] – Andrew Capland

I think starting with tactics is good. It’s hard to start a company in those early days, you’re scrapping and claw to try to survive. When you’re in survival mode, you do what you got to do and you run from thing to thing until you start to get a little bit of momentum. But when you start to scale a team and you have a more formalized strategy, and especially if there’s multiple teams that start collaborating on growth initiatives, that’s usually the time. It’s like this transition where an operating system can help you transition from, for lack of a better word, random acts of growth to a more coordinated system that has formalized learnings and checkpoints and artifacts you can onboard and train people on it quicker. That’s usually a good time as you start to scale a little bit more.

[00:04:20.670] – Joran

Yeah. So really, I guess when you have multiple tools anywhere in the company, focusing on growth experiments. And when we look at the growth operating system without going too much in-depth already? Are there certain essential building blocks or frameworks? How does it look? What are the blocks?

[00:04:37.870] – Andrew Capland

Every growth team should have two documents. One of them should be your growth strategy, what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, what success looks like, resources, milestones, all that stuff. And the second should be somebody that I call your growth operations manual, which is how you go about executing on this strategy, and specifically problem solving for all the stuff that I just mentioned two minutes ago. So what I’d like to include in that growth operations manual are things like a KPI. There’s some artifacts within that, like a KPI scorecard, how you’re going to track success, maybe some experiments, tracking things like that. Some rituals, which are outlining the specific meetings to plan the work, to review the results, to standardize the learnings. Some templates to help you execute and take action on the work, like experiment briefs and some of the weekly reports. Then frameworks that your team can use to make decisions so that as the leader, you don’t have to make them all. Those might look like team values, prioritization frameworks and rubrics and delegation guides, things like that. So a mix of artifacts, rituals, templates, and decision-making frameworks.

[00:05:37.170] – Joran

When you talk about the frameworks, if I go to your site and download the growth operating system, is everything… Do you already have templates for that? Do I need to come up with everything myself?

[00:05:47.780] – Andrew Capland

The way that I’ve outlined everything is I basically give the plug and play version of what I’ve created, and then I share the steps to help you customize it based on the size and scale of your organization, maybe the stage of growth that you’re at today, and a few of the other levers that I’ve seen where you would customize. So yes, I designed the growth operating system. This is like my former operating system, but it’s also the way I’ve coached over 75 different people that are leading other growth teams. I’ve gotten to look under the hood of a lot of these different teams. I basically just formalized and shared all the stuff that I’ve been helping my clients do privately one-on-one in an asynchronous one-to-many way. Nice.

[00:06:25.580] – Joran

You dive deeper into the Growth Operation manual. When we go towards growth strategy, you start with mission, vision, mapping tactics. How do you recommend SaaS founders start with this? Not everybody has it fully lined out, right?

[00:06:40.260] – Andrew Capland

Most people don’t. It’s helpful to take a step back and to think about North Star. What is the thing that you’re working towards? And you can translate that into a vision, which is you can describe what the future looks like when you’ve achieved movement in your North Star, and you can get into the specifics of what the future looks like. You can take it one step further and think about what are the two or three different levers that you’re going to need to pull and how you’re going to need to pull to achieve that vision. And then think about a portfolio of bets that help you take action on those levers that ladder up to the vision. You can set some goals and milestones with that as well. So you can share the progress proactively as you go on this journey. That’s what I like to do. It’s a cascading thing from North Star to vision to leverage goals from leverage to bets, and then some milestones to help you track progress.

[00:07:25.960] – Joran

I think everybody hopefully knows what a North Star metric is, but The North Star isn’t just, Hey, I want to get to 10 million ARR. That’s not the North Star metric. Can you give us an example of what you think is a good North Star metric?

[00:07:39.840] – Andrew Capland

Yeah, the 10 million ARR would be a great company, North Star. When you think about a growth team, it’s like, what do you do to get to 10 minutes? Well, you got to do everything right. And so usually what you look for are inputs. So if you think about the model of the business, the spreadsheet of the business, obviously, revenue is the output of a whole bunch of inputs. So what you look for is the highest signal input to that output metric, which for many Growth Teams, usually looks like either retention or activation. Activation is new user retention. When new users experience the value for the first time in your product, typically when folks experience that value, they convert at much higher percentages versus those who don’t. And then the same thing with retention, which helps you predict out either future likelihood to convert, upgrade, or expand. Those are two great North Star metrics my teams have used in the past.

[00:08:23.480] – Joran

One example people always use is the Facebook example. How many friends did you need it to invite when you joined Facebook? It was seven, was it?

[00:08:31.200] – Andrew Capland

It was seven friends in five days or something like that.

[00:08:34.340] – Joran

People have to figure out what is your SaaS for, what value it provides, and what you want them to do to actually get that value in the shortest time frame possible, and then figure out if the activation retention goes up if they achieve it or not.

[00:08:47.840] – Andrew Capland

If you do a good job picking the right activation moment, usually you see a 5 to 6X more likelihood to convert over folks that don’t. If you’re seeing folks that are activating by your definition, like an activation rate is an internal It’s not something customers or users know that they’ve done or haven’t done. But if you’re seeing that number go up, but you’re not seeing more conversions or more long-term retention, probably it’s the wrong metric and you should probably go back and redefine it and question things at that level because it should.

[00:09:13.660] – Joran

For example, in our case, and I think there’s many SaaS companies have the same, we’re a bit more technical, as in you would need to install a tracking script, you would need to install a snippet in a sign-up form, you need a developer which goes into a development cycle. It’s not as easy as signing up and getting value within 10 minutes or within an hour Because something needs to happen. Should the North Star metric be for the first time they sign up and they can already achieve something when they sign up, or could it be something also indeed after maybe two weeks when they pulled in somebody to help them?

[00:09:43.330] – Andrew Capland

It’s a great question. If you talk to 10 customers who are new paying customers that decided to put their credit card and work with you long term and ask them all the same question. You said, Hey, could you take us back in time? You’ve been with us. We’re very happy to have you be a customer. When was the exact moment you really understood what this tool was all about, how you’re going to use it to achieve your goals, some flavor of that question. And typically, what you see is different ways of describing more or less the same answer. When I saw my actual data and the way you could help me visualize it, whatever that answer is, usually That’s your activation moment. It’s a binary moment. Now, of course, there are milestones to get there. One milestone is they’ve got to create their account. Second milestone, they’ve got to get their script or code or whatever. Third milestone might be the engineer connects that and their first piece of data pipes through. At some point after that, there’s a milestone where they get to actually use their data in a meaningful way or use their information in a meaningful way when it’s theirs.

[00:10:35.820] – Andrew Capland

And that usually is the activation moment. If they do other things, it’s good. But if we can get them to do that, more effort takes a little longer, probably in your case and with some of the developers tools and more technical tools. But that’s usually a great signal.

[00:10:47.980] – Joran

Yeah, they’re focused on the output and what they want to achieve. After all, they need to do size. You mentioned growth operating system implemented when the company is bigger. When that’s the case, you often have non-growth teams like tech products or maybe CS. What role does every team play, or should every team play even a role in growth, even though they’re traditional non-growth teams?

[00:11:11.580] – Andrew Capland

Every team in a traditional siloed organization has a different view of the customer and the value and on ways you can achieve your goals. I think they all can have input. There needs to be a final owner, a decision maker, and rules for collaboration and things like that. But growth isn’t a silo. So every function is learning different stuff. So when you think about the sales team. If you have a sales team, whether you’re a product-led company or a sales-led organization, they obviously know a ton about the users and the ideal customer profile and some of maybe the initial aha moments and things like that. They get most excited when they see the product. You’ve got Our customer success team, they know a lot about churn, churn signals and retention and things like that. You got product, which is going deep on the core value and some usage and maybe voice of the customer research and things. So the job of a growth leader is to pull all that stuff in and figure out first First, before we get all those inputs, where do we see the biggest leverage to pull? Second, who do we need to look at to help us put together wins and create a good and effective portfolio of bets?

[00:12:09.500] – Andrew Capland

That’s the stage where really all these other teams part of that be inputs.

[00:12:12.650] – Joran

Yeah. Any tips, advice on how to motivate people or get them into your team? Telling product, for example, we need to change this, and then next week, you need to redo it again. It’s not going to work well, right? Any advice?

[00:12:26.460] – Andrew Capland

I’ve learned a few things. One, the team or the person who understands the problem in the most amount of detail, usually gets trusted to implement the most effective solution. So if you’re trying to, let’s just take activation or retention. If you’re trying to improve product activation or product retention, typically, the person who understands that the most, eventually is going to be included in the solutioning. So I think the first step, identify one or two of the biggest problems that if the business were to solve it, it’ll grow faster. That will get you the executive level buying. And then how do I understand this more than anybody else? My own personal journey, I was a marketer. I was sick of getting people to to sign up for a free plan and not use it. So I became obsessed with activation. Nobody else was using it. It was under the product team’s umbrella. I was a marketer, not staying in my lane, but I was obsessed. I couldn’t put it away. I was watching people sign up, signing up multiple times every day, going through the flow myself, taking notes on friction points where it seemed like I was getting stuck.

[00:13:17.850] – Andrew Capland

I was looking inside of tools like Full Story and watching other people get stuck. I was looking at the cohort data and seeing, are there certain types of users? I have a problem, dude. I was obsessed. And so because of that, I started sharing that. And I wasn’t sharing like, hey, product team, here’s something for your roadmap. It was more like, hey, is anybody else seeing the same opportunity? And nobody else cared. Everybody was like, dude, we’re focused on making the new feature, the new integration. We don’t have time for you, Andrew. And so eventually, I called a meeting with some of the senior leadership team And I was like, look, I’m a dummy. I’m just a marketer. But look what I’ve seen. I used full story. I had a list of all these amazing companies that signed up for the product, experienced a crummy experience, left and never came back. Companies, we would have been excited to put their logos on our homepage or whatever. And as I showed them that, it was this story that I started to tell through the recordings of all these people signing up, not experiencing that. And then I pulled up the charts and I said, look how often this happens.

[00:14:09.740] – Andrew Capland

Look at the two or three stages where it seems to happen the most. And I just left it. I just shared the problem. I shared the immense detail that I knew about the problem. And then the mood of the room was uncomfortable. The product leader was shifted in their chair. Our two cofounders at the time, where their arms were crossed. People were not happy about that meeting. And it was almost immediately after they I said, Hey, Andrew, why don’t you share a couple of ideas and just put it in the product backlog? You’re not going to touch it. You’re not involved in the solution. The product team will take it from there. That was phase one. For me, phase two was the product team would go off, they’d work on stuff, then they’d come back. Hey, did we fix it? We know you looked at the charts, you already got the dashboards. We made this change. Did it work? At first, the answer was no, it didn’t work. And so they’d be like, All right, want to come to our next brainstorm? We’re going to sit down with the designer and the UX person. We’ll see if we can work on it together.

[00:14:55.660] – Andrew Capland

I was like, Hell, yeah, I want to be in that meeting. I started to do that. And then eventually, I got to lead my team fully autonomously to work on that project. And so for anybody listening to this, to me, the takeaway, understand the problem more than anybody else. Don’t stay in your lane, understand the problem, and eventually you will be trusted in part of the solution. If it’s an important enough problem, that’s the building block here.

[00:15:14.310] – Joran

I think The only way to figure out if the problem is big enough is to start with the recordings, as you mentioned, then look at the cohort, look at the data. Is it a common pattern? And then would a change actually make it work while investing time into it? Nice. This podcast episode This episode is brought to you by SaaStock, my personal favorite SaaS event and community. The Europe event is taking place on the 14th and 15th of October in Dublin, and it’s going to be two full days of investor matchmaking, talk from other founders, and meetings, which will be a huge focus this year as they’re planning to have over 15,000 pre-scheduled meetings before the event. As a listener, you’re getting an exclusive 30% discount through the link in the show notes. If your company is already doing above 1 million AR, you might even qualify for a completely free ticket while they last plus up to €400 reimbursement towards your travel expenses. Discounted and free tickets are limited, so feel free to pause now, hit the link, buy your ticket or get your free ticket, and then I will see in Dublin as ready to go.

[00:16:21.280] – Joran

We’ll have a booth there as well. So make sure you get your ticket and then come back to this episode. When you’re in a team, maybe even as an employee within a company, How would you, if you take this example and then think like you’re a SaaS founder right now. So you mentioned that SaaS founders were cross-hands at the table, right? What could they have done? Should they have done something themselves to look into it? Or is it always part of the job of the growth leader?

[00:16:45.530] – Andrew Capland

That’s a really good question. Up until a certain point, the founders are the growth leader. For early stage, before one or two million ARR, or probably you don’t have a head of growth, or you might have a head of growth, but probably you hired them to work on something very specific, a growth opportunity that pre-identified, you hired someone to go execute or to go grab that opportunity. Later stage, when the founder is no longer the growth leader, these are usually unknown unknowns. At some point, somebody sees an opportunity and says, Hey, I think we should go after this. This is the opportunity. Here’s what good could look like. I modeled a few different outcomes. Here’s how it affects it. At some point, somebody’s got to do that. As the company scales, at some point, it can’t be the founder. There’s so many other things for founder to do as the company gets product-market fit and just as more a broad set of challenges to to work on across the business. At some point it becomes an unknown, unknown, and it should be the responsibility of the growth leader.

[00:17:35.560] – Joran

Makes sense. When we take growth as a whole, zoom out for a sec, you’ve been looking at different companies, right? You mentioned 75 companies. What are some of the common mistakes people or SaaS founders should listen to and avoid within their own business? Growth in general, maybe running experiments, maybe even also thinking about implementing a growth operating system. You’ve probably seen many mistakes happening on your LinkedIn You said you made millions of mistakes or did you see them happening? Tell us some common ones.

[00:18:04.820] – Andrew Capland

I think a few of the mistakes that I see are really not understanding the problem in enough detail. In the world that we’re in right now, Now with LinkedIn and social media, there’s a pressure to do what everyone else is doing, what they’re seeing work. I think one of the biggest mistakes is assuming what worked at this other big, successful company is going to work for us today. And the moment that you’re in, the ICP The community that you have and the channels that you’ve optimized in the moment that you’re in is really important, I’ve learned. So anytime you try to chase the success of someone else, instead of truly understanding the problem in your audience and the fits that you have within the market and within the channels, nothing really works. And you’d go from idea to idea and you’d float around. It’s truly understanding the problem in immense detail in the moment that you’re in. If you can understand that, the solutions, they’re not obvious, but they’ll show themselves to you.

[00:18:55.070] – Joran

Nowadays, you have all the growth hacks that’s happening for years where people share like, Hey, we changed this on the site, and then suddenly we saw a 20% increase in conversion. It’s not that you can simply copy and paste it.

[00:19:06.620] – Andrew Capland

And dude, I’m guilty of this as well. At Postcript, my last in-house gig, founders were passing around. There was some Google Doc that was open source. It was open to the public. It got passed around. It was how AirBnB built their referral program. It’s like a 40-page Google Doc. I bet if you Google it today, we could find it. But I read that, and it was like, Oh, well, now I have the playbook. I know exactly how to do it. I know exactly how they did it. This was one of their largest growth levers. I’m going to build it. And so I pitched it to the team. They were like, Yeah, dude, go get it. That’s dope. So I built it. I spent a couple of months building it. Grabbed a couple of engineers, a designer. We made this really amazing experience. There was a little piggy bank when you made a referral. It dropped a quarter in the bank. It had fun animations. It was in the tool. I was swagging. After we built that, I was like, Oh, this is amazing. This is going to change everything. I’m going to look like a hero.

[00:19:49.920] – Andrew Capland

And it flopped. And I followed the instructions. I did exactly what the Airbnb guide said to do, and it just didn’t work. And it was the wrong solution to the wrong problem. It was the wrong fit for that. And Even when you think you know better, sometimes you can’t get your hand out of the cookie jar when the cookies look too good. I was like, That looked so sweet the way they teed that up in that doc.

[00:20:07.750] – Joran

Yeah, that’s the fun part, I guess. Writing something like that wouldn’t work. You can’t just copy and paste certain things.

[00:20:13.820] – Andrew Capland

Dude, I wish you could. It would have been way easier. Yeah, it’s been funny. I think that’s the challenge nowadays in this GPT environment that we’re in is getting ideas has never been easier. There’s never been more amazing ideas, access to this information. But finding the right problem to solve, that actually is the most important skill. Then maybe having the ability to evaluate and execute on the solutions is the next most important thing. That’s a lot of what I spend my time on these days.

[00:20:39.340] – Joran

I think that’s it. We all have problems we want to solve, but actually doing it and prioritizing the ones you need to solve, I think that’s the most fun part as well, actually going into it. You mentioned the referral program, right? It’s a nice one. You spend a lot of time on it. This is also part of being in a growth team that not everything works out as you wanted. How do you manage your confidence or manage even expectations within the company when such a big project where you had so high expectations completely flopped?

[00:21:09.370] – Andrew Capland

Two things can be helpful. One is a mindset. For me personally, if you work in growth, you’re a head case. All the people who I spend my days with, they’re all on edge, only as valuable as their most recent win. They all have hits to their ego every time you get excited about something that doesn’t work out. We’re a fragile bunch, us growth leaders. I say that with love because that’s as well. So one of the things that I do for my mind is I keep something. I call it a trophy file. I do it daily. I’ve done this for years. My old coach had me do this because I hired a coach because I was feeling fragile and I was feeling lost and unvaluable. This is something that she had me do that’s changed my life that I share with everybody. So Every single day, I add three trophies to my file. File is maybe a little dramatic. It’s an Evernote document, an Evernote note that I have had for 10 years, where every day I put three bullet points or a screenshot or a kind thank you. Somebody said three things to remind myself, regardless of what happens, what outcomes I drive, here’s the value that I brought today.

[00:22:04.160] – Andrew Capland

Here’s some evidence I am who I think I am. I do that every day. That helps with me. One of the other things that you can do is tactically, when you’re working on a project, before you start it, in addition to writing out, here’s my hypothesis, here’s what good looks like, here’s the design of the thing I’m working on, I like to write out, If this works, here’s what we learn from it, here’s our next step based on that learning. Here’s who else I need to tell so we can squeeze all the juice out of this learning. If I’m wrong, here’s what we learn from it, here’s the value that we get from that learning, here’s what we’ll do next, and who I should let know on other teams based on that learning. So it almost helps you… I think about working in growth, you’re like a chief learning and enablement vehicle for the company. So win, lose, draw. You’re learning stuff that should help other teams make more efficient decisions, which should help you get to the center of the bullseye faster. Those are two things that I do, one for the mind, one for the OS that I found to be really helpful.

[00:22:54.300] – Joran

Keep in mind the wins, the trophy fail. When you talk about the experiment, keep track of what you learn from the experiments. It was also in the growth operation manual. You probably leverage AI in that now. You run so many experiments. How do you leverage that?

[00:23:08.600] – Andrew Capland

I love this question. I’ll share what I do in my business, and then I’ll share what I would do if I was still in house today. When I advise my clients in my business, I work as a coach and as an advisor, I’m a creator. I’ve got my own podcast. I send out a weekly podcast with a YouTube video and an email to my list. Everything that I do, I do an A/B test with. So every YouTube video, I’m running an A/B. Every email that I send through Substack, I’m doing an A/B. And I have a long list inside of a Google spreadsheet of every test I ran, a quick note on what I was hoping to learn, the results, and why I thought that we had the results that we had. And then now I use that. I use that to train my AI on my audience and my content in the reactions that I’ve gotten and the engagement from that. And now, before I write any new video, new email, even some of my LinkedIn posts, I’ll write the hook. And if it’s an image, what type of image, and then the engagement that I got, it just helps me to hone in on what good is fast master.

[00:24:00.240] – Andrew Capland

That’s exactly what I encourage my clients to do. They’re running a lot of A/B tests today. Make sure you’re documenting stuff. Create a brief for every experiment, have a master sheet where you’re tracking the results of every brief and every test that you’ve run, and then train AI on what works and doesn’t work within your business in the context, in the moment, and the channels that you’re experimenting in. And what I like to do is to then, before I run my next A/B test, ask, I use GPT, ask GPT, Hey, based on my previous results, what do you predict will happen? I would say, if you train it on enough Half data points, it’s probably right 6 out of 10 times, like 60%. The hit rate is not 100%, but my personal hit rate, like Andrew’s hit rate is like 10%. Whatever I thought was going to happen, never happened. We dramatically increased our hit rate, and over time, that will continue to get better. Forget what the most popular growth minds are doing. Forget what worked at Canva and Miro. Let’s figure out what works at our company with our audience and our channels.

[00:24:53.770] – Andrew Capland

That’s how the next generation wins.

[00:24:55.520] – Joran

Yeah. Indeed, it doesn’t have to be super tricky. You used ChatGPT. Where did you have the master document? Like in Google Docs?

[00:25:02.300] – Andrew Capland

Yeah. Is it a Google spreadsheet? Yeah. I screenshot it. I’ve thought about moving it to Google or Google Notebook just so I don’t have to update it. At some point, I will. But for today, it works incredible.

[00:25:11.800] – Joran

Don’t overcomplicate things. Put in a document somewhere and then just feed it and then go from there.

[00:25:16.850] – Andrew Capland

Which if we go back, one of the most important things that every team should be doing is documenting. That’s a huge part of this next generation’s operating system because without documentation, you’re just doing stuff and you’re not actually learning from it. If you can’t learn from it, you can’t get better over time, and really, you’re just wasting time. That, to me, is the input there. It’s like document.

[00:25:36.660] – Joran

Yeah. It sounds so obvious, but even for myself, I run so many things. We’re not a huge team, so the one-point documentation is not the huge priority. But if we would, and we probably should starting next week, we can actually train also people which come on board. Like, Hey, these are all the things we actually have been doing, what has been working, and they can just ask the AI, What happened before I joined the team, for example?

[00:26:03.120] – Andrew Capland

Totally. From a founder perspective, nowadays, how long does the average employee stay on? Maybe two and a half years. If you’re great, a small number of employees will stay a long time, but the vast majority stay for a few years. You get them for a couple of years, which means there’s always losing of context and historical information, to me, that artifact is really important.

[00:26:20.640] – Joran

I think this ties on to my next question. What should a founder think about before hiring their first growth lead documentation? What else should they thinking about, I guess, so they can really empower their first growth hire from day one?

[00:26:34.900] – Andrew Capland

There’s a few inputs here. I think one is it’s helpful to understand what a growth leader your company needs. I come from the marketing side of growth. Obviously, I’ve worked my way into the product side. But in my 15-year career, the first half of it, I was a marketer. And so at a company that has acquisition challenges, someone with my background and skillset would be a great first hire. If you’ve got the flip side, which is like, Hey, our acquisition engine is humming, but we really need to work on is retention and monetization and conversion inside of the product. Then obviously, bringing someone on board that has that skillset and that background will be a fit. So there are different types of growth titles. I think figuring out the right skillset, company challenge match to me is This is an important first step. I think when hiring that person, obviously, you want to look for folks who are learners, that are curious, that have demonstrated the ability to solve many problems, and that have frameworks to solve the problems. Because at every company, there’s going to be new problems that nobody knows how to solve.

[00:27:30.000] – Andrew Capland

And so there are some folks that have experience solving very specific problems, and they know the answers to those, and they can say the answers to those quickly. But what if the context isn’t the exact same at your company? It’s not going to be. And if they don’t have a system that led them to the answer, they just got lucky guessing, and they checked, and it turned out that it worked, that’s not going to be someone that’s going to help you get to the next level. So that’s really important. One of the most underrated skill sets in growth is the ability to translate technical growth jargon, the space is full of jargon and acronyms, for non-native speakers. Someone who knows what to do and why to do it and can explain it to folks that have no idea what’s paramount to this work. For both the founder and the growth leader, before you get started, I like to go really slow and clarify and verify what does growth own, what are they accountable for, who should they collaborate with on other projects? And That’s a conversation. Both sides should bring a POV on that. When I coach folks, and the story at the beginning of our coaching engagement isn’t like, Hey, things are going perfectly.

[00:28:23.600] – Andrew Capland

If it’s not going perfectly, it’s almost always, I don’t really know what growth is. My boss hasn’t done my job before, and I think it should be this, but I don’t think they have that impression. They’re always telling me to do this other thing, and I keep explaining it to them, but they don’t understand. The root cause is always a lack of alignment on ownership and accountability.

[00:28:40.300] – Joran

I went to the Growth Conference in M7. There were a lot of people, of course, and I think that was one of the biggest things as well. People don’t understand or often their company doesn’t understand what growth actually does.

[00:28:53.240] – Andrew Capland

If you don’t have that, and then you get hired into a role, and you’re all excited, and you’re like, I’m going to be the head of growth here, but you’re not in the same… There’s no way you be successful. That’s going to be tough.

[00:29:02.460] – Joran

At the beginning, you said hire somebody with the skillset for a problem. That, I guess, also comes back to what you said before, not understanding the problem in detail. Really make sure somebody understands the problem you’re trying to fix. If you’re thinking about hiring somebody, first think about what are your problems, and then try to find somebody with the skillset there.

[00:29:20.960] – Andrew Capland

I think about a lot of the work that I do. The most valuable work I do is the first 20% of a project in the last 10%, meaning the first 20% is What’s the problem that we need to solve? If we solve it, what impact does it have on the business? There are many different ways we could solve this problem. What would be the best one for us, aligned with the resources that we realistically have available? The scoping and the problem identification part is so important. And then on the tail-end, did we do it? We did something. We had an idea. We thought it would be impactful. We did it. Did it work out? How can we hold ourselves accountable? I think if you can be really exceptional at finding problems and brainstorming effective solutions and prioritizing the right bets, it’s just a matter of time until you get it. You’ve got a system that will lead you to the answer more so than hoping you figured it out or hoping you guessed right. That’s a lot of my work today. Beginning 20, last 10%.

[00:30:10.940] – Joran

It’s really interesting. If we look at our own journey, sometimes we know things are broken, so we just implement a fix, I guess, assuming that it is going to actually fix things, but we never measure the actual effect because we’re probably not big enough to measure everything and go from one problem to another. When I think about it, we don’t write anything down. We I don’t know if it actually fix certain things. I think this is happening more than just in our company.

[00:30:34.620] – Andrew Capland

Yeah, dude, it happens everywhere. What’s interesting, something you could think about, would be if you’re at an… For any founder, if you’re at an organization where you don’t have enough statistical weight to lean on quantitative for every single decision that you’re going to make. Use the qualitative. Do some user testing. Do a little bit of user research. That has been so helpful in my journey and when I’ve been in-house and when I coach or advise companies that are early stage, that’s okay. Everybody, the SaaS community He puts a ton of weight on the data. Data is a very valuable currency. But the quantitative isn’t the only… The qualitative is so helpful. So I like to do that. If you were working on an acquisition challenge and you don’t have enough data to run an A/B test, or if you’re in an A/B test, it might take you two months to get statistically valid results. Show a version of it to 10 people. Ask them what they think the next step is. Ask them what might stop them from clicking on your CTA or taking the next step. They’ll probably all say similar answers to the same root cause.

[00:31:25.620] – Andrew Capland

Go fix that thing and then ask 10 other people based on the new design the same question, and probably they’ll give That would be a different answer. That would be a good feedback. You can do that in any area of the tool, any area of the user journey. Good stuff.

[00:31:35.780] – Joran

Yeah, and even, as you mentioned before, watching recordings could even give you feedback without having to jump on a call. I don’t care, but I know a lot of people don’t want to jump always on calls or they can’t get people on a call, so that would give a lot of insights.

[00:31:50.000] – Andrew Capland

There’s also tools for that. You could use… I grew up using usertesting. Com, which is a platform. You can show people an experience and then ask them to answer questions verbally out loud. It sends you a screen recording and an audio recording. There’s a whole bunch of other tools in that space that do user research, user testing at scale without you having to manage everything one-to-one that are just like SaaS platforms. I love those options.

[00:32:12.580] – Joran

Every experiment is different, but I guess When we look at product activation, maybe even retention, any tools you would recommend here. For example, we just switched over to Post-hoc, so we maybe even going to drop Google Analytics at one point, so we can have everything in one place. You advise over 75 clients, right? If you go in and have a new client and they haven’t set up any system, what will be the first thing you would set up or you would almost require them to install for you to be able to do your work?

[00:32:41.680] – Andrew Capland

Probably three categories of tools. They’ll need some type of CRM, marketing automation tool. So like a HubSpot-esque tool so they can communicate to customers in an email channel and track stuff and get some basic level reporting. Second would be a little bit more advanced reporting, a post hoc, maybe a mixed panel or an amplitude for a larger organization organizations, things like that. And then the third would be some way to communicate, assuming it’s a SaaS company, some way to communicate to customers inside of the product. Especially if you’re early stage, you’re not going to have the resources to make a ton of product changes in the early days. So having some way, you can communicate one to many or even one to one to users of your product to gather feedback, to let them know about updates, whatever it might be will be incredibly helpful. For that, I really like… Well, Pendo might be not a great fit for really early stage, but even an intercom would be a great first step and a place to start or an app queues or something like that. Those are all great options for that category.

[00:33:35.740] – Joran

If we look at the future, say 2-3 years, what should SaaS founders prepare for when it comes to growing their SaaS company? You can take it as broad as you want.

[00:33:45.300] – Andrew Capland

Train the AI on your proprietary data so that you can leverage that data and query it to make future decisions. That, to me, is the playbook. Who knows where the technology will lead us? Who knows what new channels are going to emerge? That stuff is ever changing. What that isn’t going to be changing are the results and the learnings that you get from your audience. So that’s what I’d be doing. I’d be documenting why I’m doing things and the results of those things, whether it’s an A/B test or a new program or a new bet that we might be taking internally. Train my AI on those results and then query my AI to ask it to predict the results of the next thing that I’m working on. If you got two or three years of that data, you should be hitting a lot of home runs.

[00:34:24.540] – Joran

Yeah, because in the end, garbage in, garbage out. If you start documenting everything, you I can’t query everything. But if you don’t do it and you just come up with it later, it’s not going to work.

[00:34:34.100] – Andrew Capland

We’re all querying stuff today. When you ask for my opinion, I’m literally just querying my own experience and saying, Well, I think this based on what I’ve seen. But most of us are wrong or we’re so biased or we saw something one time, we read something from someone that we really respect and we just over-index to that. The AI doesn’t over-index. It just looks at the facts.

[00:34:50.720] – Joran

Yeah, more specifically, facts which happened within your company. Because, for example, we have 150 podcast episodes. If we train an AI based on a transcript, you can ask them like, Hey, give me five growth hacks. It doesn’t actually mean it’s going to work for your SaaS business. So I think this is a really important one. Cool. Let’s wrap things up. Final two questions. Again, you can take it as broad as you want, but This is going to go into revenue stages. What advice would you give a SaaS owner who’s just starting out and now growing from zero to 10K monthly recurring revenue?

[00:35:23.830] – Andrew Capland

At this stage, I’d be looking for one channel that works really well for acquisition and one communication acquisition channel that drives retention. I would keep it very basic in the early stages. That’s what you need. Obviously, you’re not going to really have a lot of conviction on the right way to position the product. You’re not going to have a ton of data on A/B. None of that stuff. We can get customers in, leverage one channel in the early days. There’s different channels. Part of the early process is finding the one. Then really see if you can perfect one acquisition channel, one retention channel, and that’ll get you going.

[00:35:55.020] – Joran

First, find the one and keep focusing on the one which is actually getting it.

[00:35:58.800] – Andrew Capland

You can scale a big business on one channel.

[00:36:00.380] – Joran

Yeah, I agree. As long as I keep focusing on it and not be too distracted on other things. We’re going to make a huge step. I know we’re going to go from 10K MR towards 10 million ARR. Again, you can do however you want, you can chop it up, but what advice would you give SaaS founders here?

[00:36:19.420] – Andrew Capland

On this journey, I think that there’s two components that are really, really important. The first is going to be new user onboarding. That new user experience at this stage typically becomes much more valuable. At this stage, if we think about the revenue as a proxy, we’ve got some momentum in the market. We’ve maybe got the inklings of a product market fit, and it’s time to start optimizing a little bit. What we want to do is really pay attention to that new user experience because every additional user we can retain is going to compound over time. I’d pay attention to the new user activation and onboarding experience. And when I hit plant toes, I would really be leaning on segmentation in any area of my growth model. So if I’m starting to hit the point of diminishing returns on the acquisition side, I want to lean on different segments within the channel I can optimize for. So either different goals or different jobs to be done or different titles or verticals, Bersilina, whatever it might be. Same thing inside of the product. So if I’m hitting conversion plateaus, either in activation or in conversion from active user to paying customer.

[00:37:16.940] – Andrew Capland

I want to really be thinking about what are the different ways I can slice and dice this database? How can I communicate differently to those folks in here? And what we’ve learned in other areas is that segmentation usually helps to break through those conversion plateaus. But I’d really lean on those two things.

[00:37:30.580] – Joran

Slice and dice the data. Love it. Let me see if I can try to summarize. So when we go back to the beginning, the growth operating system, building teams that deliver real value, execution is everything. When you’re early stage, start with tactics. When you’re in survival mode, so don’t care about the growth operating system. Only care about it when you actually have multiple people. When you are going to implement it, there’s basically two layers, like the growth strategy. So start with a North Star metric. Get a highest signal input for the output you’re trying to deliver. And then, of course, set up goals, milestones, your mission and your vision, but go into the document to look deeper into that. When you go to the Growth Operations manual, think about KPIs, scorecards, experiment tracking, rituals, templates, frameworks to make decisions. You don’t have to come up with everything. Just go to the template from Andrew. If you’re a founder and you don’t know what to focus on, try to find your two biggest growth problems and then figure out how can you solve them. If you’re a person within a company and you want to be involved in growth, make sure you actually understand the problem the most, and then you will be involved in the experiment.

[00:38:36.350] – Joran

That’s how Andrew got involved because you need to understand the problem in detail. That’s one of the most typical problems which are happening right now. Growth, if you want to keep sanity, keep a trophy file, so keep track of the value brought every day, every week or every month, I guess. You mentioned week, but you can, of course, do however you wanted. But I think the biggest thing you mentioned, if you want to look into the future, train your AI, build your own GPT, keep track of what you learned from all the experiments, document everything. Keep a master document with brief experiments, results, what you learned, train the AI, ask the AI, and you can even ask it what will happen with new experiments you think about running. When you’re going to hire your first person, hire somebody with the skillsets for the problem, and hire somebody who’s able to explain technical things in a normal jargon. Then when we think about growing from zero to 10K MR, first find one channel and then focus on one channel and then 10K to 10 million AR, new user onboarding becomes a lot more valuable. It will compound over time and then implement segmentation, slice and dice your data as much as you can.

[00:39:48.530] – Andrew Capland

That was impressive.

[00:39:49.360] – Joran

No AI is being used for this. Not yet. Maybe soon.

[00:39:55.280] – Andrew Capland

Very impressive.

[00:39:56.460] – Joran

Nice. If people want to get in contact with you, Andrew, I think you’re pretty active on LinkedIn. What would be the best way?

[00:40:02.210] – Andrew Capland

Linkedin is great. Andrew Capland. Follow me on YouTube. I’m starting to experiment a little bit more there. Andrew Kaplin, spelled the exact same way. If you’re interested in my work or you want to check out the GrowthOS or anything else, I’m up to deliveringvalue. Co.

[00:40:15.300] – Joran

Love it. It’s a really nice domain. We’re going to link to that. Linkedin, I will add a link. We’ll add a link to your website, deliveringvalue. Co, so not. Com, right?

[00:40:24.620] – Andrew Capland

Exactly. Can’t afford the. Com.

[00:40:26.620] – Joran

Welcome to Startup Live. Can they also find a growth operating system on the site there?

[00:40:30.930] – Andrew Capland

Yeah. If you go to deliveringvalue. Co/os, it will redirect you to the right page and learn all about my growth operating system. It’s available for 4. 97. I think it’s pretty reasonable for all the stuff you get to learn and implement in there. It’s all in there.

[00:40:43.230] – Joran

Exactly. It’s going to bring the value back once you implement it.

[00:40:46.860] – Andrew Capland

That’s the goal.

[00:40:47.900] – Joran

Nice. Thanks for coming on. For people listening on Spotify, if you haven’t, leave us a review. So give us five stars so we can beat the algorithms. And if you listen anywhere, just give us a thumbs up or whatever you can do on a platform. For now, Great. Thanks again for coming on, Andrew.

[00:41:01.440] – Andrew Capland

You got it. Thanks for having me.

[00:41:02.710] – Joran

Thank you for watching this show of the Grow Your B2B SaaS podcast. You made it till the end, so I think we can assume you like this content. If you did, give us a thumbs up, subscribe to the channel. If you like this content, feel free to reach out if you want to sponsor the show. If you have a specific guest in mind, if you have a specific topic you want us to cover, reach out to me on LinkedIn. More than happy to take a look at it. If you want to know more about Reditus, feel free to reach out as well. But for now, have a have a great day and good luck growing your B2B SaaS.